It's not much of a secret that I'm interested in Humankind. I was at Gamescom last year when it was first announced, getting the chance to have a preview of the game as well as an interview with the Narrative Director, Jeff Spock. I also had the chance to test out the OpenDev scenarios released in August, previewing those.
It only made sense, then, that I jumped at the chance to interview Studio Head and COO off Amplitude Studios, Romain de Waubert, speaking more about Humankind and the recent OpenDev sessions, as well as the newly announced launch on Stadia. So, without further ado, let's talk Humankind.
Before the part of the conversation you'll see below we did introductions, talked a little about strategy games, other Amplitude games in general, including Dungeon of the Endless. This won't be in the post because I don't have that part recorded.
Chris Wray: I suppose the first thing I want to talk about is that you're bringing it to Stadia. Can you tell me about it?
Romain de Waubert: So, Stadia. Personally, I'm playing a lot with streaming. I'm a big fan of streaming. My first thing with streaming, while some people will say it's not streaming, it was actually Steam Link. I played a lot from my PC to the rest of my home. Sometimes from the office. I was so impressed by how well it was working. I tried some other stuff that wasn't so amazing. I think the quality of the engines and the servers they had were probably not strong enough. Like, my home machine was perfect, I have it for gaming. Then you had the stadia announcement a bit before that, I had the chance to try it - I think playing Doom on it - on Wi-Fi in a Google office and I couldn't tell the difference, I was blown away.
Then we started discussing with them, some of the things they had in mind. Suddenly you're discussing with one of the biggest companies out there and interacting with Stadia, it's already exciting. It's maybe a way to include and attract more people to your game and just that is amazing. If you leave that aside and just look at the tech. I think what's good is that they're not just talking about streaming.
Streaming is a given, in a way, but because they're Google they have access to the best of everything already, so that's exciting. What's interesting is when they show what they can do with it. How they can link technology and community, you interacting with your players in the game, and that becomes very fascinating. The first time we discussed that, I felt like I was looking in the future for a few seconds. That, for me, is how it all started.
CW: Just to confirm, the Stadia version will be launching alongside the other versions of Humankind?
RW: Yes
CW: Keeping with Stadia first. What's interesting to me is that your games have always been very moddable. There's a massive community built around mods. How does that work in terms of such as Stadia?
RW: I don't know [laughs]
CW: [laughs]
RW: We're working on it. We're working on it a lot with Google and Stadia. It's a platform which is just starting now so it's something we're discussing together. I hope I can give you an answer before the release, but it's not sure, not 100%.
CW: I can understand that. With any new technology, you're going to have to work some things out.
RW: Yeah
CW: So, by the time I write this interview out, you're going to have released a new OpenDev for Stadia. Will this also be available for everybody else as well as Stadia?
RW: No. So basically, we first did the OpenDev, a collection of scenarios that was on Steam at the time. Now, this is just on Stadia and it's a whole other scenario. It's only one, but it's bigger. It's a longer period of time. The goal of OpenDev isn't to be a demo for Humankind. It's just for us to try different things.
CW: To get feedback
RW: Yes, to get feedback on it, to improve it. We zoomed in on a few elements with the community in August-September. We looked at battle and economy mostly, in a way the heart of the game loop. We've improved on that already, but we wanted to see how that works with the changing of cultures and a longer period of time. I think we'll get a lot of feedback on how the economy and war interact with each other.
There are elements that are placeholder-ish, in a way, but we definitely need to get feedback on these pieces together. I can already tell some stuff we want to improve, but maybe the audience will say the things I want to improve aren't the most important and maybe they'll find other things to improve that are more important.
Also, Steam is a platform we've been working on for like ten years. Stadia is a brand new platform for us, so it's great for us to get feedback on how it works with the platform. So it's a great opportunity for all of us.
CW: I suppose this is also a bit of a trial for the tech itself, to see how Humankind functions while on Stadia.
RW: Exactly. You know, with such games, they're so rich, I'm sure people will find some crazy ways of doing things we didn't think of. So, we can definitely find out and make it a bit better or patch it somewhere.
CW: I suppose one of the good things of the sort of game Humankind is, a strategy game, is that it's a slower-paced game and suitable for any sort of streaming. You don't need to worry about latency, loading a lot in rapidly and such as that.
RW: It's interesting to see that some of the first games released on Stadia were very latency driven games like Destiny, combat games like Doom, and it's hard to tell that it's not local. Now, for us, the most interesting aspect for us is that you can't cheat. You don't have any data besides video.
So if you want to play with friends, if you want to show who can do the best at something - I'm giving you some hints at things we could do - It's very interesting. If you look at 4X in a way at competing on how you can be the best at one given situation, Stadia is the best environment for it today.
CW: That's a very interesting take, I'd never thought about that. So, it's essentially the perfect neutral environment, there's no way to sabotage it?
RW: Exactly. We have a lot of players who love to show their save games, what they did and what they achieved in their story. You could have a lot of similar elements but you're 100% sure there are no cheats. So, if somebody shows a crazy way of doing something, you know it's there. In terms of community building, I think it's amazing.
CW: Looking at the Stadia OpenDev scenario, you've mentioned the changing of cultures and such. What's going to be the main focus of the scenario, what new elements?
RW: You'll have some new elements coming in. Religion and diplomacy will be coming in. These two elements are being worked on, so we'll get feedback on them and keep working on them. We're still at a stage where a lot of improvements will come in. I think what's most important is that we're getting closer and closer to the stage where we're happy with the economy and battles. We also want to make sure they work in an environment where they interact together and also where they interact together with the change of cultures.
It's also about how it's felt by the players. Of course, the feedback that they get, the rewards, we want to have a lot of paths for rewards, how the player feels rewarded for what they are doing. It's very interesting to see how they react already to what we have in the game, to help us prioritise. Also, it's very important to use to see what they like best, so we don't change it. The worst thing could be to break something that everybody loves. In the end, you get hyped, you want to work on everything and re-work everything, sometimes you can break good things.
So that's the idea. We'll see what comes up from the players and we're very excited by it. To be honest, it's very frightening. It's frightening for all of us.
CW: Did you find any surprises from the feedback of the first OpenDev session?
RW: Surprises... not really. They did push where it hurts [laughs]. You know some weaknesses and you're thinking "I hope they don't say it" and they all press on it and you're like "aww, okay, they did say it!" [laughs]
CW: [laughs] I suppose that is what it's for though!
RW: In a way, that's it. It was just perfect. We did ask a lot of questions, but we are very happy to say that more than a quarter of all of the players answered the questionnaire. It's a pretty high rate. On the economy and the city, the feedback was incredibly positive and we've improved on it since then. It was only 0.3% that didn't like it, with 5% that were neutral. All the others liked it or loved it.
For war, we had something around 5 or 10% that didn't like it. The top reason was that they felt it was too slow. Even those who liked it mentioned that as well. We knew we had a lot of work to put in to increase the pace of the battle. That's something you'll find in the OpenDev and it feels a lot smoother. Some of the stuff on the economy, we still felt that things could keep improving. You'll find some of these improvements. Other things, the interface of the city wasn't well received. This hasn't been improved yet, but it will be improved later.
CW: With this new OpenDev, you've mentioned religion and diplomacy coming in, coming into focus, can you tell me something about them?
RW: They won't be a focus, they'll just be new elements because we're still heavily working on them. But, people will be able to let us know what they like and don't like about them. For me, it's just about how the elements will work together. Economy, battles, change of cultures, that's the key element I want to get right.
CW: So how will religion act and work in Humankind? Will it act in a similar way to the cultures where you can develop and change over time? Will you see multiple religions in your empire?
RW: As an empire, you'll have your main religion. You can also have several religions, specifically regions that lean towards a religion. As time goes on you can also evolve your religion, you can maybe split from the main religion and then you'll have to go into a religious war because you're splitting.
It's very interesting to see everything that can be done in this very important topic in history. When you think about history, you can look at many countries that were impacted by religion. From religious wars, invasions as a result of religions, and civil wars based around religion. In France, we had quite a lot of that.
Other aspects that I think are very interesting is that you can become friends with other empires because they have the same religion. Sometimes you can have a common enemy because of it. Sometimes you were friends with somebody, but they have a schism and decide to go against your religion - what do you do with that? It adds a bit of craziness in what could be a regular path. Sometimes, you have to follow your people. In the case of some countries you'll find that the government of a country is in a minority compared to the people, so how can you rule, how do you listen to your people to make sure they're happy, even though you're not of the same religion as them?
We've tried to make a simple system, but we wanted to add elements that you can't control perfectly.
CW: So you can potentially have civil wars in your faction?
RW: If your people aren't happy with you, you'll have riots and armies that come out of the cities that rebel against your rule, so it is possible. I'm not sure if I was allowed to say it yet [laughs], but you will have that in the game.
CW: Since Diplomacy is going to make an appearance in this OpenDev, could you tell me a little about it?
RW: So it's the first iteration, it is evolving. At the base of our system is what we call "the crisis". When we looked at history, you often have a case or situation - Let's look at Troy, Helen being abducted by Paris. It's the crisis. How do you react to that? Do you ask for Helen to be sent back? Do you use it as an excuse to go to war? - that's the situations we have in the game.
You have this sort of crisis that can be created by you trespassing, changing religion, all of these elements that can create cases for others to decide to face you with them. They could give you the chance to make amends, do nothing, or basically they could go to war with you. If they go to war, they'll be justified and they'll start with more of the people following them in the war.
The way we're going to do war, you can win through weapons, but also through the morale of your people. Will they follow you, or not? If you go to war and nobody is following you, you'll have a very painful and sorry death. You also need your citizens to feel like they're fighting in a justified war. That's why, in a way, for thousands of years leaders have always tried to find a way to justify their wars, not just to conquer more territory. They need to find an excuse so people have a good reason to die.
CW: So it's more than just a national identity aspect, more than just you as a leader saying "we need to do this"?
RW: Yeah. Some times it could be. You have civics which could be very different. You can have cultural differences that can make it easier to go to war than if you are closer. There are a lot of things that can come into the mix. Maybe you'll decide to pick some civics that make you evolve closer to where somewhere else is. It's interesting in that sense.
So you'll have a lot of excuses, it all depends on how you'll react to them and it'll allow you to go into easy wars and some difficult, painful wars. What we're trying to do is avoid people going into wars just for the fun of it. The crisis system is at the base of that, it's still being worked on to balance out the number of crises, the way you can create them.
You'll also have a simple system that will show how you stand in terms of agreements. So, for example, non-agression, if you can attack anywhere, or do resource exchanges. It's visual, so you can easily see where you stand on kind-of, nearly a chessboard effect if I may say so. Some aspects will appear in OpenDev, such as resource exchange, which is very simple. When there is a resource on the map and if you're on good terms with the owner, you can just click on the resource and directly buy it. You don't need them to agree, it's just commerce, there's no reason to say no if you have an agreement.
CW: This sounds like a much more realistic trade system than most games which would force you to trade by talking to another empire, doing a like-for-like trade.
RW: In a way, it's simpler. Sometimes, it's a bit more realistic. That's why we like the system in Humankind. You don't need to try to go through a bargain where you're like "I'll give you two of that for three of that, plus one tech and whatever" and things like that. It's very simple, I want it, I'll pay for it - if you have the relationship.
Some other things you'll see is how technology and civics can spread through the map in the world. With commerce, roads will appear and people start moving. With these people, ideas start moving. With these ideas are techs. Basically, when they start being very present somewhere, you can try to buy the tech or basically adopt it. The same for civics. It could also be that your people want you to adopt it, it's what they want, though you may not want it and say no, even though they want it.
CW: That sounds very interesting. So this could really make the game evolve in different ways, popping up what are essentially mini-scenarios. For example, you could be a dictatorship and a democracy is nearby and your people are suddenly like "you know, we want a voice".
RW: Exactly. That's how they could get unhappy if you ignore them, but it's up to you to decide. It's a very interesting way to see if you want to be friends with an empire, with their people. Do their civics fit in with what I pick? It's kind of putting you back in the shoes of a leader throughout history.
I was told now that time was sadly running short and asked if I had any last questions.
CW: Well, I thinl the main thing is if you've got a planned release date for Humankind?
RW: It's going to be April. We don't have a specific day, but it'll be April and this is good for us, we have plenty of time to work through the feedback of OpenDev and keep working away on Games2Gether. It's exciting and it's good to have that time.
CW: Are you planning on any more OpenDev sessions before the release date?
RW: We'll find ways, as you can see there's a big gap so we need to find ways to get all the feedback we need in the meantime.
CW: Excellent, thank you very much.
RW: Take care, thanks a lot.
CW: And you! Thanks.
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